Jeff,
you are in a persistent thoughtless state correct? As I have been able to still
the mind for ages - not silence it however.
Yes, I learned to silence the mind decades ago; however, I use it as a useful tool when needed. I call it learning to find and use the off-switch for the mind, but using it for useful purposes, just not being addicted to the mind, as most people are.
Is a still mind sufficient for charismatic phenomena?
A still mind is the doorway to the charisms, as well as 6 more 'chambers' to pass through for final liberation.
Is
there something necessary about prolonged bodily motionlessness? Is that my issue?
Motionlessness, within the context of deep meditation here does not refer to rigidity. To go deeper in the experience of deep meditation requires deep relaxation, so if one is being hyper-vigilant to keep the body from moving might be being rigid, and tense to keep the body from its automatic movements. I find when my mind is still, then my body is so relaxed that, if I am sitting up to meditate, then my body may sway slightly as the major arteries and veins will cause a deeply relaxed body to sway slightly.
As I
have been thinking for so long the "quest" is a purely cognitive
activity. I notice when I sit for long periods the body begins to paralyze
itself. Should I just be satisfied with the still mind and stay motionless for
long periods rather than commit all this labor on the silent mind? Would that
be my error? What do you recommend? What might I be missing?
Here I have to disagree. The experience of deep meditation is relative in depth to how much cognition one has let go of, as the states are self-arising when the mind is still and relaxed.
Possibly what also is needed is to recognize the arising of the charisms, so that one can attend to them as if they were a meditation object.
I
always thought if I got "stuck" on the path I'd just come out there
and put myself under your yoke; though my Inner Director doesn't compel me to
do this.
Well, people are welcome to visit me, and we can work out a mutually convenient time to do so; however, I am so ill with an over-loaded auto-immune system that I cannot breath the local air for more than an hour without it turning into a trip the the ER. So, it is best for now that a serious contemplative find a conducive environment for deep meditation, and engage in it for at least 3-6 hours a day.
Alexander,
if you seek a still mind (which I define as no thoughts) (2nd jhana), then I
suggest you make this your practice: Always observe the contents of the mind,
without either accepting or rejecting the contents, and without making any
commentary on them. You merely witness the contents of the mind.
Try this practice as an experiment for 10 days, and see where that gets you.
For more detailed info on this, go into my post history and look at my post on
mindfulness. Suspend judgement on this enterprise until the end of the 10 days.
Although you claim that it took Teresa of Avila 12 years to silence her mind,
it shouldn't take you, nor anyone, anymore than 10 days.
This is good advice, thank-you, Intuition.
1. For some reason it seems I had the idea the still mind evolves into a
superior "silent mind" in which no thought provocations arise.
Perhaps this is achievable in an OOB state but after years of striving for
perfect "silence" using all kinds of mechanisms in the here and now
it seems to not be a good use of effort. The "still mind" will
suffice.
While the still mind is a valuable stage to develop, and longer periods of stillness are useful, which can be accomplished in solo wilderness retreat; nonetheless other skills are necessary for depth. These skills are detecting charisms, which require a still mind, but once the charisms start to arise, then they become the object of meditation, leaving behind observation of the still mind.
2. I
have been consuming more literature on astral projection / the OOB state
recently. I have been reading through Robert Monroe's original book on OOBEs
and browsing some posts and guides by people who claim to be able to have
OOBEs. I have been reading these with a good mix of openness and skepticism.
Many of the ideas challenge well established notions. For example, one person
claims to have interacted with aliens, been tackled by astral projecting secret
service agents, etc. It may be in this higher reality there are deceptions there
too.
Here is where I have been somewhat negligent. Once one goes OOBE one will eventually find the immaterial domains are infinite, and highly stratified. Thus, the first level one encounters in the immaterial domains is a domain that parallels the material world. This is where we can encounter beings who are either asleep and dreaming, or those who are recently dead. This domain is where we can encounter demons, and yes, it is a highly delusional domain. We move beyond this delusional domain the deeper we learn to meditate. Also, as we develop skill with sensing the charisms then the deeper/higher we go leaving behind the demons. We just have to keep in mind that as scary as the lower astral realms appear the more delusional it is.
3.
It seems I got the idea (from one of the Buddhist sutras somewhere) that it was
necessary to master jhanas 1-4 to achieve enlightenment and the OOB state was
of secondary importance. It seems I also developed some unclear ideas from
reading mystical literature; for instance, the concept of the "unitive
state" or "spiritual marriage" as a state in the here and now as
the highest goal.
Yes, and no. Yes, the 4 jhanas, or material attainments, are critical to develop for various reasons, and I will simply put it now as developing essential skills. However, the 4 immaterial stages are also essential for various reasons but including greater depth in overcoming our delusions.
Here I will state that as long as we are in a material body, then we are subject to the body's biological imperatives. When we fully gain facility with the 4 immaterial attainments (ayatanas), then we have shed most of what it is to be in biology.
4.
Reading Monroe's account - and the accounts of others who have had OOBEs - it
seems many of them have them with no prior preparation or meditation
experience. I do not have a good narrative here and am honestly losing interest
in creating one; it is what is. Monroe writes he had a nonexistent interest in
religious questions prior to his experience; he experienced his first OOBEs
just from relaxing deeply.
I had OOBEs throughout my childhood. I did not understand them, and no one helped me to understand them until I was 21. It was then that I read a number of books including Monroe's I left the OOBE community behind back in 1974 because they did not understand much of the immaterial domains or how to gain facility with them. I found understanding and control of the immaterial domains via leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, which most of the OOBE people do not seem to have come to.
5.
Monroe's account testifies to the reality of the nonphysical, and on the
survival of the spiritual after death. At the same time, it emphasizes the
importance of trying to achieve this experience while alive, so one can be
prepared for the end.
I agree.
6.
From Evelyn Underhill, Gurdjieff, and similar writers I had the idea that those
who experience OOBEs have been through the "mystical way." For
example, they have gone through a process of metanoia (the transformation of
the mind and emotions) - also called "purgation" in monastic
literature - and the dark night of the soul, etc. Reading some of the accounts
of people who have been OOB, it seems many have these experiences at an
extremely young age with no prior preparation. So, this undermines all these
neat narratives of how the mystical life works or develops. Though I do not lament
my years of training and study and discipline, it is a paradigm shift.
The explanation for why people experience OOBEs prior to taking up a contemplative life is because they engaged in a fruitful contemplative life in previous lifetimes, and have come back to finish up. I have recovered many previous lifetimes through the OOBE, and have found evidence in support of this hypothesis. However, I have also observed while in an OOBE that when a master returns to a body for the betterment of material beings, then when he or she takes birth, his/her students also may return to the body, which explains why during the life of a master, the master accumulates students with impressive spiritual accomplishments.
7.
Stopped meditating sitting. Meditating now lying on the back in bed, and
orienting most sessions now to begin about an hour or two prior to sleeping.
Focusing mostly on bodily motionlessness.
This is where the OOBE community has made a mistake. They clearly do not understand the value of the 4 material attainments. While your practice regimen seems close to be correct, I would caution you that, while you seem to have gotten the 2nd jhana, you do not seem to have gotten the 3rd and 4th, which you are going to need when you go OOBE.
So, sure practice meditation while lying down once you put the body to bed for the night. Do not be rigid about not moving, instead just relax deeply, and be observant of the charisms as they arrive; otherwise continue your sitting practice to acquire the 3rd and 4th jhanas, and their associated charisms.
8.
It seems the goal may be to reach what is called "sleep paralysis"
and then "pull" oneself or "roll" oneself out of the body.
I have never experienced this state of paralysis before, though I have felt the
limbs and body parts "tingle" or change as you remain motionless for
long periods.
Yes, sleep paralysis is a common experience prior to the OOBE, and one could practice various role-out methods. They worked for me. The tingling that you mentioned might just be one of the charisms, or it might be your limbs are falling asleep because you are not relaxing deeply enough, and being too rigid.
9.
It seems being still for 1 hour is not a long enough time. This is what I have
been doing and it may not be enough. I have been trying to find people giving
time frames to give a better perspective. Some people claim paralysis can
happen within 20 minutes, others say 1 hour or more.
Typical of the OOBE it has incommon with the 4th jhana a loss of the time domain, so one cannot be sure how much time goes by when one is in the 4th jhana, and just before the OOBE (5th samadhi) begins.
10.
The paralysis / OOB state may have something to do with sleep phase (unclear).
One writer is absolutely vehement it only happens during "phase 2"
(?) of sleep. So what he writes is one should take a nap in the afternoon (uses
your "phase 1" of sleep) then go back to bed with the bodily
motionlessness practice to provoke the OOBE. I don't nap often but I may try to
get an hour or two less of sleep one of these nights and give it a try.
Most of my early OOBEs occurred during a nap, or following one.
11.
It seems I should expect blindness and a lack of other senses, strong sexual
desire, and a difficulty separating from the physical body if I can provoke an
OOB state. It seems sight and the other senses "develop." I should
also expect, apparently, not to remember the experience and that for this reason
I should write it down.
For me, the OOBE followed a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life that gave rise to the 4 material attainments (jhanas), and the developing of lucid dreaming, which included journaling my dreams.
12.
It seems the experience of being OOB (I am writing as someone with no
experience of it) gradually results in a development of senses in the
"astral" body but then after sufficient time elapses it shifts into a
wholly different experience as a formless being.
Those 'astral senses' are the charisms that we develop in the 3rd and 4th jhanas.
13.
It seems sex in the physical world is a shadow version of intimate contact in
the nonphysical world.
I do not see this, and see no reason for this; however, I can see that some people gain deep relaxation following sexual release of tension.
14.
It seems OOB experiences take on two forms: one in which one has the experience
of separating from the body and finding oneself in the present environment; and
one in which there is no experience like this and in which one just finds
oneself spiritually in a wholly other place. This distinction really clarifies
a lot and helps make it a lot less confusing.
Yes, I have experienced both of these. I do not think it matters much. Once one goes OOBE one is likely over time to have both experiences.
15.
Dreams, it seems, are in fact the lowest plane of the spiritual world and each
night pretty much everyone visits the spirit world though they do so in a
"drunk" or "unconscious" state. This is honestly a huge
understanding to have in our world of 2019. Dreams are usually dismissed as
oddities or events of moderate psychoanalytical interest but not much else. It
seems that our distant ancestors, before the rise of technology, may have been
quite active while asleep - which would explain much of the folklore around
shamans, medicine men, etc - and with the advent of technology and materialism
we lost this understanding.
Yes, these have been my experiences.
16.
Lucid dreams seem to be a "created" reality (no experience with these
either) but are still illusions. The out of body state is an interaction with a
"real" world (?) though the concept of real changes quite
dramatically here...
This is only true for those who are actively cultivating creative visualization. Whereas, if an individual goes OOBE without the experience of leaving the body, then we can call that a lucid dream, or an OOBE. It just depends upon the level of cognition that one is engaged in at the time.
17.
Reflecting back on all this it is quite an extraordinary journey to come to
this. It is indeed true the "straight and narrow path" is found by
few and that "human beings are not supposed to find the spiritual
path." Being born in the world one has no idea; the idea of there not
being a spirit, atheism, materialism, etc, could be just as plausible as there
being one from normal understanding. All the established religions with their
corrupt priesthoods also lead one astray. Enlightenment itself could have been
many things for all one knew and one might imagine it could have nothing to do
with the "fantastic."
I do not agree with "human beings are not supposed to find the spiritual path." However, it is true that the genuine mystics have remarkably similar experiences from one culture to the next. And, the priesthood of every religion in most cases has no experience like we are discussing here, and they tend to demonize mystics, because they are "bad" for the business of religion.
18.
I think of all those philosophers I read over the years who got side tracked
thinking about other topics (economics, politics, etc...) missing the real goal
of philosophy; or of Kant who thought there was no way one could have definitive
knowledge of the spiritual one way or the other. I have to say I am glad there
ended up being a spiritual realm and the like and it makes the whole cosmos a
great deal more interesting. ;p
19. Been contemplating the reincarnation question and its relationship with karma, justice, free will, and destiny. Some of the OOB writers seem to say animal spirits are different from human spirits. This contradicts the usual Buddhist teaching that a human can descend and be incarnated as an animal with negative karma. I also question how one can obtain freedom if one lacks the cognitive powers of humans. Finding the "way" is hard enough in itself. Not sure...
I do not see the need for cognition, and see how the 8 levels of spiritual attainment clearly occur as we drop the cognitive elements.
20.
Been contemplating one strange idea I got from Gurdjieff which I've seen
repeated by Monroe. These are honestly the only places I have encountered such
a thing. Gurdjieff said "archangels" feed off the suffering and
deaths of humans; that the whole earth is a kind of prison for their benefit. It
seems Monroe had a similar idea which he mentioned once called the
"loosh" farm... no idea what to think of it. If true it makes human
life extremely bleak and intrinsically manipulated. But perhaps it is an
allegorical / teaching tool.
I disagree here.
21.
Been thinking about Plato and Socrates, the idea the physical world is an
"emanation" of the higher spiritual world, and the World of the
Forms. These great Greek philosophers had the right idea...
My experiences in the immaterial domains agrees with the above.
22.
I think of my cousin who works at a hedge fund. Such a different path he has
followed: following the wisdom of the world, a life filled with stress and
anxiety and endless work hours, trying to accumulate wealth. And yet that
wealth (as I intuited at a young age) only lasts so long. The same with my
friend who is sex-obsessed. And here I have followed this (apparently ;p)
foolish path, with this lifestyle that is simple and unambitious, and yet reach
this otherworldly wisdom and have the potential for freedom. Life is a harsh
place and very complex.
All too true. And, these people who waist their entire life in materialism are the ones who will marginalize the fruitful contemplative.
Quote from: Journeys Out of the
Body, "Post Mortem" chapter
And yet, at times, in visiting
Locale II, a very unusual event
periodically occurs. It makes no difference where in Locale II, the
event is the same.
In the midst of normal activity, whatever it may be, there is a distant
Signal, almost like heraldic trumpets. Everyone takes the Signal calmly,
and with it, everyone stops speaking or whatever he may be doing. It is
the Signal that He (or They) is coming through His Kingdom.
There is no awestruck prostration or falling down on one's knees.
Rather, the attitude is most matter-of-fact It is an occurrence to which
all are accustomed and to comply takes absolute precedence over
everything. There are no exceptions.
At the Signal, each living thing lies down-my impression is on their
backs, bodies arched to expose the abdomen (not the genitals), with head
turned to one side so that one does not see Him as He passes by. The
purpose seems to be to form a living road over which He can travel. I
have gleaned the idea that occasionally He will select someone from this
living bridge, and that person is never seen or heard from again. The
purpose of the abdominal exposure is an expression of faith and complete
submissiveness, the abdomen being the most vulnerable part of the body
or the area that can suffer damage most easily. There is no movement,
not even thought, as He passes by. Everything has come to a momentary
standstill, full and complete, while He passes.
periodically occurs. It makes no difference where in Locale II, the
event is the same.
In the midst of normal activity, whatever it may be, there is a distant
Signal, almost like heraldic trumpets. Everyone takes the Signal calmly,
and with it, everyone stops speaking or whatever he may be doing. It is
the Signal that He (or They) is coming through His Kingdom.
There is no awestruck prostration or falling down on one's knees.
Rather, the attitude is most matter-of-fact It is an occurrence to which
all are accustomed and to comply takes absolute precedence over
everything. There are no exceptions.
At the Signal, each living thing lies down-my impression is on their
backs, bodies arched to expose the abdomen (not the genitals), with head
turned to one side so that one does not see Him as He passes by. The
purpose seems to be to form a living road over which He can travel. I
have gleaned the idea that occasionally He will select someone from this
living bridge, and that person is never seen or heard from again. The
purpose of the abdominal exposure is an expression of faith and complete
submissiveness, the abdomen being the most vulnerable part of the body
or the area that can suffer damage most easily. There is no movement,
not even thought, as He passes by. Everything has come to a momentary
standstill, full and complete, while He passes.
This is not an experience that I have had instead I have had many experiences of communicating with the major masters of the world as a peer, no doormat for me.
Quote from: Journeys Out of the
Body, "Post Mortem" chapter
To me, it was a place or condition
of pure peace, yet exquisite emotion.
It was as if you were floating in warm soft clouds where there is no up
or down, where nothing exists as a separate piece of matter. The warmth
is not merely around you, it is of you and through you. Your perception
is dazzled and overwhelmed by the Perfect Environment.
The cloud in which you float is swept by rays of light in shapes and
hues that are constantly changing, and each is good as you bathe in them
as they pass over you. Ruby-red rays of light, or something beyond what
we know as light, because no light ever felt this meaningful. All the
colors of the spectrum come and go constantly, never harshly, and each
brings a different soothing or restful happiness. It is as if you are
within and a part of the clouds surrounding an eternally glowing sunset,
and with every changing pattern of living color, you also change. You
respond and drink into you the eternity of the blues, yellows, greens,
and reds, and the complexities of the intermediates. All are familiar to
you. This is where you belong. This is Home.
As you move slowly and effortlessly through the cloud, there is music
around you. It is not something of which you become aware. It is there
all the time, and you vibrate in harmony with the Music. Again, this is
more than the music you knew back there. It is only those harmonies, the
delicate and dynamic melodic passages, the multivoiced counterpoint, the
poignant overtones-it is only those that have evoked in you the deep,
incoherent emotion back there. The mundane is missing. Choirs of humansounding
voices echo in wordless song. Infinite patterns of strings in
all shades of subtle harmony interweave in cyclical yet developing
themes, and you resonate with them. There is no source from which the
Music comes. It is there, all around you, in you, you are a part of it,
and it is you.
It is the purity of a truth of which you have had only a glimpse. This
is the feast, and the tiny tidbits you tasted before, back there, had
made you hope for the existence of the Whole. The nameless emotion,
longing, nostalgia, sense of destiny that you felt back there when you
stared at the cloud-layered sunset in Hawaii, when you stood quietly
among the tall, waving trees in the silent forest, when a musical
selection, passage, or song recalled memories of the past or brought
forth a longing for which there was no associated memory, when you
longed for the place where you belonged, whether city, town, country,
nation, or family-these are now fulfilled. You are Home. You are where
you belong. Where you always should have been.
Most important, you are not alone. With you, beside you, interlocked in
you are others. They do not have names, nor are you aware of them as
shapes, but you know them and you are bonded to them with a great single
knowledge. They are exactly like you, they are you, and like you, they
are Home. You feel with them, like gentle waves of electricity passing
between you, a completeness of love, of which all the facets you have
experienced are but segments and incomplete portions. Only here, the
emotion is without need of intense display or demonstration. You give
and receive as an automatic action, with no deliberate effort. It is not
something you need or that needs you. The "reaching out" is gone. The
interchange flows naturally. You are unaware of differences in sex, you
yourself as a part of the whole are both male and female, positive and
negative, electron and proton. Man-woman love moves to you and from you,
parent-child-sibling-idol and idyll and ideal-all interplay in soft
waves about you, in you, and through you. You are in perfect balance
because you are where you belong. You are Home.
Within all of this, yet not a part of it, you are aware of the source of
the entire span of your experience, of you, of the vastness beyond your
ability to perceive and/or imagine. Here, you know and easily accept the
existence of the Father. Your true Father. The Father, the Creator of
all that is or was. You are one of His countless creations. How or why,
you do not know. This is not important. You are happy simply because you
are in your Right Place, where you truly belong.
Each of the three times I went There, I did not return voluntarily. I
came back sadly, reluctantly. Someone helped me return. Each time after
I returned, I suffered intense nostalgia and loneliness for days. I felt
as an alien might among strangers in a land where things were not
"right," where everything and everyone was so different and so "wrong"
when compared with where you belonged. Acute loneliness, nostalgia, and
something akin to homesickness. So great was it that I have not tried to
go There again.
It was as if you were floating in warm soft clouds where there is no up
or down, where nothing exists as a separate piece of matter. The warmth
is not merely around you, it is of you and through you. Your perception
is dazzled and overwhelmed by the Perfect Environment.
The cloud in which you float is swept by rays of light in shapes and
hues that are constantly changing, and each is good as you bathe in them
as they pass over you. Ruby-red rays of light, or something beyond what
we know as light, because no light ever felt this meaningful. All the
colors of the spectrum come and go constantly, never harshly, and each
brings a different soothing or restful happiness. It is as if you are
within and a part of the clouds surrounding an eternally glowing sunset,
and with every changing pattern of living color, you also change. You
respond and drink into you the eternity of the blues, yellows, greens,
and reds, and the complexities of the intermediates. All are familiar to
you. This is where you belong. This is Home.
As you move slowly and effortlessly through the cloud, there is music
around you. It is not something of which you become aware. It is there
all the time, and you vibrate in harmony with the Music. Again, this is
more than the music you knew back there. It is only those harmonies, the
delicate and dynamic melodic passages, the multivoiced counterpoint, the
poignant overtones-it is only those that have evoked in you the deep,
incoherent emotion back there. The mundane is missing. Choirs of humansounding
voices echo in wordless song. Infinite patterns of strings in
all shades of subtle harmony interweave in cyclical yet developing
themes, and you resonate with them. There is no source from which the
Music comes. It is there, all around you, in you, you are a part of it,
and it is you.
It is the purity of a truth of which you have had only a glimpse. This
is the feast, and the tiny tidbits you tasted before, back there, had
made you hope for the existence of the Whole. The nameless emotion,
longing, nostalgia, sense of destiny that you felt back there when you
stared at the cloud-layered sunset in Hawaii, when you stood quietly
among the tall, waving trees in the silent forest, when a musical
selection, passage, or song recalled memories of the past or brought
forth a longing for which there was no associated memory, when you
longed for the place where you belonged, whether city, town, country,
nation, or family-these are now fulfilled. You are Home. You are where
you belong. Where you always should have been.
Most important, you are not alone. With you, beside you, interlocked in
you are others. They do not have names, nor are you aware of them as
shapes, but you know them and you are bonded to them with a great single
knowledge. They are exactly like you, they are you, and like you, they
are Home. You feel with them, like gentle waves of electricity passing
between you, a completeness of love, of which all the facets you have
experienced are but segments and incomplete portions. Only here, the
emotion is without need of intense display or demonstration. You give
and receive as an automatic action, with no deliberate effort. It is not
something you need or that needs you. The "reaching out" is gone. The
interchange flows naturally. You are unaware of differences in sex, you
yourself as a part of the whole are both male and female, positive and
negative, electron and proton. Man-woman love moves to you and from you,
parent-child-sibling-idol and idyll and ideal-all interplay in soft
waves about you, in you, and through you. You are in perfect balance
because you are where you belong. You are Home.
Within all of this, yet not a part of it, you are aware of the source of
the entire span of your experience, of you, of the vastness beyond your
ability to perceive and/or imagine. Here, you know and easily accept the
existence of the Father. Your true Father. The Father, the Creator of
all that is or was. You are one of His countless creations. How or why,
you do not know. This is not important. You are happy simply because you
are in your Right Place, where you truly belong.
Each of the three times I went There, I did not return voluntarily. I
came back sadly, reluctantly. Someone helped me return. Each time after
I returned, I suffered intense nostalgia and loneliness for days. I felt
as an alien might among strangers in a land where things were not
"right," where everything and everyone was so different and so "wrong"
when compared with where you belonged. Acute loneliness, nostalgia, and
something akin to homesickness. So great was it that I have not tried to
go There again.
I have had this experience many times. It is what I call heaven, but there are domains much higher and more blissful than this.
Quote from: Journeys Out of the
Body, "Inconclusive" chapter
9/9/60 Night
I was lying in a north-south position, when I suddenly felt bathed in
and transfixed by a very powerful beam that seemed to come from the
north, about 30° above the horizon. I was completely powerless, with no
will of my own, and I felt as if I were in the presence of a very strong
force-in personal contact with it.
It had intelligence of a form beyond my comprehension, and it came
directly (down the beam?) into my head, and seemed to be searching every
memory in my mind. 1 was truly frightened because I was powerless to do
anything about this intrusion,
This intelligence force entered my head just above the forehead, and
offered no calming thoughts or words. It didn't seem to be aware of any
of my feelings or emotions. It was looking impersonally, hurriedly, and
definitely for something specific in my mind. After a while (perhaps
only moments) it left, and I "reintegrated," arose, shaken, and went
outside for some fresh air.
9/16/60 Night
The same impersonal probing, the same power, from the same angle.
However, this time I received the firm impression that I was
inextricably bound by loyalty to this intelligence force, always had
been, and that I had a job to perform here on earth. The job was not
necessarily to my liking, but 1 was assigned to it. The impression was
that I was manning a "pumping station," that it was a dirty, ordinary
job but it was mine and I was stuck with it, and nothing, absolutely
nothing could alter the situation.
I got the impression of huge pipes, so ancient they were covered with
undergrowth and rust. Something like oil was passing through them, but
it was much higher in energy than oil, and vitally needed and valuable
elsewhere (assumption: not on this material planet) . This has been
going on for aeons of time, and there were other force groups here,
taking out the same material on some highly competitive basis, and the
material was convertible at some distant point or civilization for
something very valuable to entities far above my ability to understand.
Again, the intelligence force moved out and away quickly, and the
visitation ended. I got up after a bit, feeling depressed, and went into
the bathroom in our house, and actually felt I should wash my hands
after working (although my hands were clean).
I was lying in a north-south position, when I suddenly felt bathed in
and transfixed by a very powerful beam that seemed to come from the
north, about 30° above the horizon. I was completely powerless, with no
will of my own, and I felt as if I were in the presence of a very strong
force-in personal contact with it.
It had intelligence of a form beyond my comprehension, and it came
directly (down the beam?) into my head, and seemed to be searching every
memory in my mind. 1 was truly frightened because I was powerless to do
anything about this intrusion,
This intelligence force entered my head just above the forehead, and
offered no calming thoughts or words. It didn't seem to be aware of any
of my feelings or emotions. It was looking impersonally, hurriedly, and
definitely for something specific in my mind. After a while (perhaps
only moments) it left, and I "reintegrated," arose, shaken, and went
outside for some fresh air.
9/16/60 Night
The same impersonal probing, the same power, from the same angle.
However, this time I received the firm impression that I was
inextricably bound by loyalty to this intelligence force, always had
been, and that I had a job to perform here on earth. The job was not
necessarily to my liking, but 1 was assigned to it. The impression was
that I was manning a "pumping station," that it was a dirty, ordinary
job but it was mine and I was stuck with it, and nothing, absolutely
nothing could alter the situation.
I got the impression of huge pipes, so ancient they were covered with
undergrowth and rust. Something like oil was passing through them, but
it was much higher in energy than oil, and vitally needed and valuable
elsewhere (assumption: not on this material planet) . This has been
going on for aeons of time, and there were other force groups here,
taking out the same material on some highly competitive basis, and the
material was convertible at some distant point or civilization for
something very valuable to entities far above my ability to understand.
Again, the intelligence force moved out and away quickly, and the
visitation ended. I got up after a bit, feeling depressed, and went into
the bathroom in our house, and actually felt I should wash my hands
after working (although my hands were clean).
My documentation here is an effort to show that these natural phenomena are either misinterpreted OOBEs, or experimental air and space research vehicles, and/or misunderstood natural phenomena, such as mirages.
The immaterial domains, and the OOBE are commonly misinterpreted. Misinterpreted phenomena on the immaterial domains is a product of people who are: dreaming, or dead, or in an OOBE, who collectively create a domain in the immaterial (spirit) world, where an apparent high tech culture exists, but it is simply a collective fabrication of the mind (delusion).
Quote from: Alexander
So, it seems that Monroe and Gurdjieff may have both been mistaken in this
regard, misunderstanding delusions in the collective unconscious as bona fide
aliens. It seems the OOB writer I read last week (who wrote about astral projecting
secret service agents, "greys," etc) might share this delusion. But,
I am just evaluating it as best I can.
Yes, I agree here, I too have had many OOBEs that involved technology, and space aliens. I came to realize that this is just another delusional realm, and quite far below the deepest/highest levels of the immaterial domains.
Yes, I agree here, I too have had many OOBEs that involved technology, and space aliens. I came to realize that this is just another delusional realm, and quite far below the deepest/highest levels of the immaterial domains.
1. As of now, no progress on a meditation induced OOBE. Some theories on why
this may be:
(1) Duration. It simply requires a very long session in order to induce. The theory here would state session length must be increased to reach the OOBE. Even with this young body, it is hard to sit upright for more than 1 hour. Even lying down in bed motionless for over 90 minutes is difficult.
(1) Duration. It simply requires a very long session in order to induce. The theory here would state session length must be increased to reach the OOBE. Even with this young body, it is hard to sit upright for more than 1 hour. Even lying down in bed motionless for over 90 minutes is difficult.
It is looking like you are trying to hard. Do keep in mind that Islam means to 'submit,' with the implication that one is submitting to god, or what we would call here 'samadhi.' This is where I find Islam, and Mohamed were right on. Thus, now making your primary goal deep relaxation.
(2)
Vibrational state. Monroe writes that through relaxing deeply, he induces what
he calls a "vibrational state" in which he can feel oscillating waves
spreading throughout the body. I have not experienced this. Though I have
experienced a "tingling" or other sensations I would be just as
willing to attribute these to imagination. The theory here would state that
persistent practice would eventually result in the "vibrational
state" leading to further progress.
It is my hypothesis that many of the so-called 'charisms' might just be natural physiological phenomena that generally lies below our awareness level until we take up a fruitful contemplative life. Thus, the so-called "vibrational state," which is reported by most mystics, is becoming so sensitive that we can actually 'feel' the oscillations of the nervous system. And, it is the arising of such charisms that precede the OOBE.
Since it appears that you have arrived firmly in the 2nd jhana, then your goal should not be jumping ahead 2 levels of spiritual experience, and put your attention upon developing the 3rd jhana. The third jhana is where many of the charisms arise. So, charismatic hearing should also arise here. The third jhana is where we also develop a deeper level of tranquility, which is called 'equanimity.' So, keep practicing.
(3)
Need for a "first" OOBE. Many of the accounts I read of these OOB
writers describe an initial first experience which was not anticipated; in many
cases it came as a total accident or surprise. After this, OOBEs occurred at
regular intervals whether desired or not. If this is the case the theory would
follow that a first OOB experience must be provoked in some way through much
effort and trial and error, and that the experience would naturally follow in
further attempts from there.
Interesting hypothesis. Yes, I too had early OOBEs, as early as my childhood. However, my explanation for this is people who manifest chrisms at an early age without having engaged in a contemplative life might be reincarnated mystics at some level or another.
(4)
The "phase 2" of sleep theory. I mentioned this one earlier. As of
now this is the one I am leaning furthest towards. This is mostly a product of
my many long hours of meditation with no extraordinary experiences. It just
seems there is some nuance about consciousness or the like that I am missing.
But, further investigation is required.
What made OOBEs a nightly occurrence for me was developing lucid dreaming. Getting lucidity in the sleep state started with me taking up a contemplative life, and developing moment to moment here and now awareness; then working on lucid dreaming techniques, which for me was just programming myself before sleep that I would awake after each dream, then I recorded each dream. In about a week or 2 I had my first controlled, and fully aware OOBE.
(5)
Attention level. One of the OOB writers I read mentioned there is a "happy
medium" required for the attention to induce the OOBE. He said it is
neither a state of complete focus nor one of daydreaming sleepiness. There is a
state in between these that, when maintained, results in the OOBE. If there is
anything to this this theory would likely state I am too attentive, and the
concentration should wander for it to work. Not sure about this one and it
contradicts all the traditional experience I have had with meditation.
The problem that I have with most OOBE writers is they do not often get the connection between consistent OOBE experiences and leading a rigorous, self-aware, contemplative life. Thus, I disagree with the OOBE writers here.
Quote from: Alexander
2. Only two entries worth recounting from the dream log.
4/29 Dreamed about standing up, walking out of bed, and writing an entry in the dream log. A "false awakening."
5/2 An interesting one here. Happened to drink quite a lot of fluid before sleeping. Usually go to the bathroom before trying to sleep to avoid having to wake up in the middle of the night. I did so, however my bladder awoke me around 2 or 3 AM to use the bathroom anyway. Went back to sleep; used it as an opportunity for what OOB writers call a "wake back to bed." However, I was unable to stay motionless on my back. I was extremely agitated and restless trying to maintain a straight position on my back. I recall rolling onto my side, the body slightly curved in this posture that way. This was easier to maintain.
From here I have a memory of me raising my hand up and away from my physical hand. I then have a brief memory of moving slightly forward into the room. The reason I recount this as perhaps not being a dream was the sense of doing this in my normal consciousness. Perception and understanding were present in what I remember (these two factors are absent in dreams). At this point (it was only a very brief few moments) I paused and attempted to comprehend what was happening. This invoked thinking. Upon this the experience ended.
The experience above may entirely have been a dream; I do not know. I made a note of it in the log either way.
These sound like possible brief OOBEs. Good work, and keep going.
2. Only two entries worth recounting from the dream log.
4/29 Dreamed about standing up, walking out of bed, and writing an entry in the dream log. A "false awakening."
5/2 An interesting one here. Happened to drink quite a lot of fluid before sleeping. Usually go to the bathroom before trying to sleep to avoid having to wake up in the middle of the night. I did so, however my bladder awoke me around 2 or 3 AM to use the bathroom anyway. Went back to sleep; used it as an opportunity for what OOB writers call a "wake back to bed." However, I was unable to stay motionless on my back. I was extremely agitated and restless trying to maintain a straight position on my back. I recall rolling onto my side, the body slightly curved in this posture that way. This was easier to maintain.
From here I have a memory of me raising my hand up and away from my physical hand. I then have a brief memory of moving slightly forward into the room. The reason I recount this as perhaps not being a dream was the sense of doing this in my normal consciousness. Perception and understanding were present in what I remember (these two factors are absent in dreams). At this point (it was only a very brief few moments) I paused and attempted to comprehend what was happening. This invoked thinking. Upon this the experience ended.
The experience above may entirely have been a dream; I do not know. I made a note of it in the log either way.
These sound like possible brief OOBEs. Good work, and keep going.
Thank you, Jeff, for the very
interesting thoughts. Yes, for some reason I have felt compelled to pursue the
OOBE now, and also to recount my experiences here. I generally look to your
thoughts and to my Inner Director for guidance. So, my Inner Director is the
one encouraging this and compelling me to record these things here; I try not
to write unless I feel the inner "push" to do so.
You are welcome, and following one's inner guidance is a good thing, as long as we are skilled at stilling the mind, so that our inner guidance does not end up being a mind-game.
I find this a very interesting idea.
If I recount some of the "charisms" I have experienced, such as the "inner
sound" (tinnitus), the "vibrations" (feeling the nervous
system), "inner heat" (warmth in the chest), and so on, they might be
attributed to physical phenomena that we are simply becoming more sensitive to.
One interesting point I read recently was a writer discounting the visions of
orbs and light (I have not experienced these), and disembodied sounds, as
hallucinatory phenomena, which would be in accord with this idea.
Yes, here I believe the orbs of light seen just prior to the OOBE might just be the body being so relaxed causes the irises of the eye to dilate, and the focus of the eyes becomes so relaxed and pulled back that the retina is resolving the empty space made by the retracted iris. This could explain why some people see different colors of light orbs. I tend to see blue orbs, and my irises are blue. Thus those with brown eyes would see brown, or golden orbs.
This is an interesting question, and
one which I in humility have attempted to discern. The first jhana
(self-arising joy) and second jhana (the still mind) are very clearly
definable, while the third and fourth are less clear. If the third is defined
by equanimity, the long martyrdom (we are venturing into Christian mysticism
here...) I experienced over the preceding years is unambiguous training in the
perfection of this attribute. The fourth jhana I am less clear on; the Pali definition
is "no pleasure and no pain." The transition state to the OOBE
involves viriya (the vibrations in the body?), which are affirmed by Monroe.
When you fully develop the charisms, then the 3rd jhana will become more apparent to you. Also, the 4th jhana is also characterized by a sense of timelessness. Say, an hour or 2 meditation will go by and we may only think it has been minutes, or minutes go by and we think it was hours.
Yes, I was rereading your biography
on this recently and trying to get a better sense of it. You have followed a
very different path than me. You had these OOBEs starting from a very young
age. Having these from the beginning would likely make the whole experience
with meditation very different.
Yes, and no. While I had a consistent series of OOBEs at an early age, nonetheless, there was no cultural context for the OOBE until William Monroe and others started publishing books on the subject. Before then I thought I might be going crazy. It was my early mentor, Francis Grow, who gave it a name, and eased my concerns. So, I see it that this is my goal here:
1) inspire people to experience the charisms;
2) help people understand the strange world of the immaterial domains.
Based
on the above, when one attains nonreturning one is reborn in the heavenly
worlds. Though this raises several questions. In Buddhism, nonreturners don't
return to lower worlds. But this seems to contradict the idea that higher world
existence is impermanent; that the devas can descend to lower states of
existence. Does this mean that one can be reborn in higher worlds just due to
virtue or good karma, but without the quest for liberation?
While the altruistic states are valued in the Pali Canon; nonetheless, altruism is seen in the Pali Canon as the product of correctly following the Noble Eightfold Path, which culminates in negotiating the 8 stages of samadhi.
3.
The OOB state is making me reconsider what the definition of
"enlightenment" is. It seems many people have these OOB experiences
with no interest in religious-philosophical questions. It makes me recall the
Buddhist sutra I mentioned earlier - when the Buddha said one might go OOB but
not be enlightened. Though the experience necessarily results in a dramatic
change of views, the question arises: are all those who have OOBEs enlightened?
Or can one have these experiences and not be?
By my definition above, then attaining the OOBE may represent stream entry requiring attainment of all 4 jhanas, plus attaining the 5th, which is the OOBE, but not consistently.
4.
This raises the question: what is enlightenment? This is such a hard question
to answer; scouring all of Christianity and many of the world's religions and
philosophies there are few answers. The best we have likely lies in Buddhism,
relying on the fetters to judge progress:
I. Overcome
- Identity view
- Attachment to rites and rituals
- Doubt about the teachings
II. Weakened
- Sensual desire
- Ill will
III. Overcome
- Sensual desire
- Ill will
IV. Overcome
- Attachment to form based existence
- Attachment to formless existence
- Conceit
- Restlessness
- Ignorance
I. Overcome
- Identity view
- Attachment to rites and rituals
- Doubt about the teachings
II. Weakened
- Sensual desire
- Ill will
III. Overcome
- Sensual desire
- Ill will
IV. Overcome
- Attachment to form based existence
- Attachment to formless existence
- Conceit
- Restlessness
- Ignorance
I will agree that the fetters are removed for one who is fully enlightened, but it requires full attainment of all 8 stages of samadhi.
This
then raises the further question: can one be enlightened and not have the OOBE?
Though it is unlikely one could fully overcome ignorance or the desire for
existence with or without form without it.
Well, no, see above.
Log
Experiments this week were mostly unsuccessful.
5/3 Attempted to repeat the "WBTB" experience using the "bladder method." This time I consciously tried to drink a lot of fluid to wake up in the middle of the night. Woke up at 11 PM (drank too much). No results.
5/4 A second attempt with the "bladder method." Woke up at 5 AM (drank too little). No results.
5/5 Last attempt with "bladder method." Woke up at 4 AM. Interrupted dreaming. I was in a "dreamlike" consciousness with many images spontaneously flowing. I only make note of this as it is mentioned as being significant by some OOB writers. Very hard to keep the body motionless and relaxed. No results.
5/6 It seems like I am wasting too many days with the bladder method. This time I set the alarm clock for 3 AM. I woke up then and a few other times in the night. The early awakenings were very stressful; high drowsiness and restlessness. Woke up at 4 AM and was able to be motionless and relaxed with the aid of music for about 20 minutes. No results. I am questioning if it would be prudent to physically get up or give the mind some time to reorient itself before making the meditation attempt.
Experiments this week were mostly unsuccessful.
5/3 Attempted to repeat the "WBTB" experience using the "bladder method." This time I consciously tried to drink a lot of fluid to wake up in the middle of the night. Woke up at 11 PM (drank too much). No results.
5/4 A second attempt with the "bladder method." Woke up at 5 AM (drank too little). No results.
5/5 Last attempt with "bladder method." Woke up at 4 AM. Interrupted dreaming. I was in a "dreamlike" consciousness with many images spontaneously flowing. I only make note of this as it is mentioned as being significant by some OOB writers. Very hard to keep the body motionless and relaxed. No results.
5/6 It seems like I am wasting too many days with the bladder method. This time I set the alarm clock for 3 AM. I woke up then and a few other times in the night. The early awakenings were very stressful; high drowsiness and restlessness. Woke up at 4 AM and was able to be motionless and relaxed with the aid of music for about 20 minutes. No results. I am questioning if it would be prudent to physically get up or give the mind some time to reorient itself before making the meditation attempt.
Good tries. Your use of music reminded me often we have background sounds that can interfere with going deeper in meditation. I recall about 20 years ago I used to lead the meditation sits at a vipassana group in Tucson. I noticed that the meditation hall had a clock on the back wall, and it ticked loudly. I found the ticking interfered with my normal depth of meditation, so I removed it from the hall, and found I had my normal depth restored. So, I do not recommend meditating with music, or guided meditation, nor clocks, or other cyclic mechanical devices, such as refrigerators, etc.
1.
Remembering more and having more entries for the dream log. Though I am likely
still forgetting much.
2. It seems that the mind goes through phases during sleep:
https://i.imgur.com/S7DFLAk.jpg
According to one sleep scientist the brain enters dream-sleep several times in the night. That means when one recalls things for the log it is likely only from that last dream-phase. At the same time it is comforting as it means I am not forgetting many hours worth of dreams - most of the night is not spent dreaming.
3. Much of the dream content is nonsensical; like low value flotsam, it consists of images and information from media, TV, etc. It is just disappointing this is what my unconscious spends its time engaged with.
4. After reading Monroe's account of the "vibration" state I am becoming more conscious of it as a possible phenomenon. Have felt a couple occasional tingles now and then over the past weeks, often emerging when in a relaxed state. Though, they do not deepen to anything. It could just as well be imagination.
2. It seems that the mind goes through phases during sleep:
https://i.imgur.com/S7DFLAk.jpg
According to one sleep scientist the brain enters dream-sleep several times in the night. That means when one recalls things for the log it is likely only from that last dream-phase. At the same time it is comforting as it means I am not forgetting many hours worth of dreams - most of the night is not spent dreaming.
3. Much of the dream content is nonsensical; like low value flotsam, it consists of images and information from media, TV, etc. It is just disappointing this is what my unconscious spends its time engaged with.
4. After reading Monroe's account of the "vibration" state I am becoming more conscious of it as a possible phenomenon. Have felt a couple occasional tingles now and then over the past weeks, often emerging when in a relaxed state. Though, they do not deepen to anything. It could just as well be imagination.
Your dreams are quite normal, and common for most people who are not contemplatives. A contemplative who wishes to have many of the superior fruit (charisms) often finds they will need to radically change their lifestyle. For instance, at about the same time I began making progress with the OOBE is when I stopped watching TV. Since then TV has not been a feature of my daily life.
1. Yes, I was reflecting yesterday myself on the value of this community. It
started small but has become quite decent in size now. Actually I was realizing
that it is probable nothing like this has existed before in human history. This
community was made possible due to the Internet, in particular the modern (not
dial-up) kind...
Yes, I too have often reflected upon how unique this forum is, as most of us live at quite some distance from each other, and we most probably would not have met, and learned so much from each other, in any other civilization until the advent of the internet brought us all together.
I
was rereading a post Jhanon had made years ago, and it got me thinking about
it.
Quote
from: Jhanon
We
are treading very close to "sexism", but I wish to express that I am
not "sexist." I have some questions for you, Alexander, that I wish
to know how you see.
1) Why are there so few woman seekers of enlightenment?
2) Is it because their ticket to enlightenment is companionship with a man headed to enlightenment?
1) Why are there so few woman seekers of enlightenment?
2) Is it because their ticket to enlightenment is companionship with a man headed to enlightenment?
On the topic of enlightened women in history: Teresa of Avila, my teacher Francis Grow, and Socrates teacher were all women. This fact should suggest that women have an equal capacity for enlightenment; however, they are less known in history, possibly due to a number of factors, such as: 1) Humans tend to get their guidance from men, even when there are no enlightened men around. Also, women tend to be passive, and acquire their wisdom in secret.
I know that this forum has had quite a few women, who tended to send me inquiries off-list. Some women on this forum even took a masculine name, and person. However, I am also aware of a propensity for women to believe that by having sex with a master, she will acquire enlightenment, which is simply not true. I personally would like to see more women on this forum, because I am certain our dialog would be much better for it.
1.
Progress? The previously written about "tingles" or changes felt in
the body have changed into something that can no longer be attributed to
imagination. The sensation is consistent with the "vibrations"
written about by Monroe. As of now they seem very hit-or-miss. They seem
confined mostly to the hands and feet, though the sensations have also been
felt elsewhere as well. When taking time to sit or be motionless, sometimes
they are present, sometimes they are not. Sitting for longer periods does not
seem to necessarily amplify the sensation, but the feeling correlates with 1.
relaxation and 2. motionlessness.
Congratulations, because it appears that the charisms (jhana-nimitta) are appearing, which means the 3rd jhana has arrived. Here your new meditation object will be the charisms themselves; however, you may have to give rise to the still mind of the 2nd jhana, before the charisms return, then switch to the charisms as they arise.
2.
It is the middle of the work week now so I cannot experiment more with long
sits. Although, I may investigate focusing on relaxation and being motionless
while keeping the eyes open for brief intervals throughout the day. It is not
clear whether closing the eyes or not is significant. If I close them at work
it will stick my contact lenses to my eyes. But, it seems my goal now should be
to try to figure out a way to amplify these vibrations.
Just by making the vibrations your object of meditation should amplify them significantly.
3.
It is interesting that the sensations focus on the hands and feet. This does
correlate with the meridians described in occult literature, or with the
locations of the "holy wounds" of Christ.
Yes, I do not see this as a coincidence.
4.
One of the things that left an impression on me when I read Patanjali's Yoga
Sutras years ago was at one point he makes a reference to omens. At one point
he says something along the lines of "by discerning omens, the yogi gains
knowledge..."
The way you use the term 'omen' is in the same sense that the term 'insight' (vipasana) is used in Indic literature. Insight to to see into something at great depth.
There
was one "omen" I saw as a teenager when out on a solitary walk, in
which two large, mating? dragonflies passed in front of me. This was very
pertinent at the time, as I was still conflicted over the usual
socially-induced sexual repression taught by society. It made clear that sexual
desire was a natural part of the human experience and that what society taught
about it was dysfunctional.
Yes, I too have had this insight. I find sexual repression is at the root of human neuroses.
Over
the past two years, I have developed a pain in my abdomen, on the right side
between the end of the ribs and the start of the stomach. It seems to be
localized to a certain "spot" or point. I was concerned about this
when it did not go away, and went to the doctor's for it. The doctor conducted
a number of tests, and an ultrasound, but could not find anything where the
pain was. Since it has been two years I have since concluded "well it is
just a pain I permanently have now" and that it is benign. Perhaps a
muscle or a nerve that has been permanently damaged. It was only yesterday when
I realized the location of the pain correlates with the injury of Longinus.
"Well, great." Didn't ask for that one. Now, it could be complete accident,
or it could be something of significance. But, it is one way to interpret the
permanent pain there.
One of the gifts (charisms) that contemplative acquire is a high level of bodily awareness. So, you may have acquired this charism. Let your insight direct you to ways to improve your health so that the abdominal pain goes away.
1. It is clear Jesus – who we might refer to by his historical name, Joshua ben
Joseph – was a true spiritual teacher.
It is my understanding that the Aramaic for Jesus is 'Yeshua,' but I am not sure. 'ben Yoseph' would work, but I recently reflected upon his name at his time; since the claim was he was from the 'house of David,' then I guess it would have been 'ben David,' pronounced 'Doveed.'
2. Jesus seems to have been familiar with esotericism and
mysticism (these are my terms not his), strands of which have existed in
Judaism throughout its history.
Yes, I agree, and my evidence is what is often translated as 'fruits of the spirit.'
3. Jesus spent many years in contemplation and withdrawal;
we see this alluded to briefly in the Gospels, where Jesus was in the
“wilderness” and when he is a student of John the Baptist.
Yes, I agree. His 40 day fast suggests this. And, further, the reference to his 'way, truth and life' suggests to me his way was that of the contemplative as a journey to mysticism.
4. Jesus and John the Baptist were likely connected to a
group in ancient Judea called the Essenes. We would associate the Essenes with
asceticism, the contemplative life, and the mystery religions today. The
Essenes believed in a life of retreat into the wilderness and the practice of
the inner life.
This is a well reasoned hypothesis; however, the earliest Christians were Jews who called themselves 'nazara.' The Hebruic term 'nazara' has been translated as 'nazarite,' which refers to a Jewish person who took up monastic vows, so I take it that way; and since there is no 3rd person evidence of a town in Judea called 'Nazareth,' then all references in the new testament for such a town suggest a pervasive translation error, or an attempt to subvert the monastic origins of Christianity.
5. When he began his ministry, Jesus’ teaching was fundamentally
given “underground.” He preferred to teach directly a limited number of
disciples (who in history we call the “twelve apostles”). Beyond this we don’t
know his precise teaching or much about these disciples.
I really do not see much evidence of an 'underground' or secret teaching, as there is evidence in the Gospels that he did a number of public things. The Gospels suggest Yeshua was a peasant street preacher, or what we call a 'mendicant.'
6. When Jesus does have contact with the public, he
preferred to teach in parables, or symbolic stories.
*There are many examples of Christ’s esotericism in the Gospels, but let’s look at one occasion when he speaks to the apostles: “To you [my direct students, the apostles] it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them [the public] it has not been granted.”
*This is overall a very prudent approach for one teaching these topics; as their niceties are hard to understand, and it is easy to be misunderstood or misconstrued.
*There are many examples of Christ’s esotericism in the Gospels, but let’s look at one occasion when he speaks to the apostles: “To you [my direct students, the apostles] it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them [the public] it has not been granted.”
*This is overall a very prudent approach for one teaching these topics; as their niceties are hard to understand, and it is easy to be misunderstood or misconstrued.
I agree regarding him possibly keeping the esoteric part of his teaching for his initiated disciples.
It might be worth pointing out here that the parable is a characteristic of Persian literature of the time. And, while Rome persecuted Christians until the 4th century, the early Christians took refuge in Persia from Roman persecution. And, Christians in Persia have been known as 'Nazra' ever since.
7. There is a great deal of mythologization about Jesus;
some of this is based on symbols communicating important truths, while some is
fiction.
Yes, I agree here. It is a simple fact that many concepts central to Christianity are based upon gross translation errors, but what is new about that. We have been discussing translation errors in religious literature of all religions from the origins of this forum, and long before.
8. It is very difficult to know exactly what Jesus said or
taught and we must make our best guesses at it. There was likely a list of
aphorisms (sayings) of Jesus compiled early on that was the most authentic
source of his teaching; this work likely influenced the Gospel writers.
Yes, I agree.
9. The Christian Gospels are clearly revealed texts, written
under religious inspiration. They are dense, rich texts which communicate
important and essential truths about spirituality and human nature.
However, we also have to keep in mind that the New Testament also suggests that the 4 Gospels were not written in unity, but suggest competition of the Apostles for donations, which explains why one Gospel celebrates on Apostle, while dissing others; and why there are a fair number of contradictions between Gospels.
10. At the same time, the Gospels have many eccentricities,
and are imperfect texts, as all revealed texts are. We may distill the
essential element out of them and appreciate them, but should also subject them
to criticism.
I agree. The message of the Gospels can not be understood without deep critical investigation, which none of the translators seems to have done.
11. The Gospels were written a minimum of 50 years after the
death of Jesus, and it is probable none of the authors had direct contact with
Christ himself.
This I find is a reasonable conclusion considering that literacy was a profession at the time of Gospel redaction, and clearly none of the Apostles were literate, so even if one or more Apostles were involved in the redaction of the Gospels, they surely did not write it. They would have hired a scribe to do so. This includes the letters of Peter and Paul, and explains why scholars of the Gospels have suggested that there were at least 5 different authors responsible for them.
12. Here are a few areas which I have been suspicious of over
the years.
*Miracles
In the period of the Roman Empire during which the Gospels were written, a trope existed in which the ability of spiritual teachers was proved by their demonstration of spiritual powers. In the East, a “siddhi” is the term for a spiritual power a holy person or saint might manifest. In the Gospels, there is the interesting term “dynamikos” (power) which is alluded to at times when Christ performs the miracles.
There are other writings from around this same era of magicians and thaumaturgists (miracle-workers) who work similar wonders as Jesus. Most of these figures have been forgotten to time. It is interesting that the true teacher Jesus was the one whose account remained, and became a prevailing force.
I think these miracles are partly based on authentic manifestations that sometimes happen to spiritual seekers (the charisms), and are partly exaggerations, mythologizations, and fictions used to “prove” the attainment of Christ.
*Miracles
In the period of the Roman Empire during which the Gospels were written, a trope existed in which the ability of spiritual teachers was proved by their demonstration of spiritual powers. In the East, a “siddhi” is the term for a spiritual power a holy person or saint might manifest. In the Gospels, there is the interesting term “dynamikos” (power) which is alluded to at times when Christ performs the miracles.
There are other writings from around this same era of magicians and thaumaturgists (miracle-workers) who work similar wonders as Jesus. Most of these figures have been forgotten to time. It is interesting that the true teacher Jesus was the one whose account remained, and became a prevailing force.
I think these miracles are partly based on authentic manifestations that sometimes happen to spiritual seekers (the charisms), and are partly exaggerations, mythologizations, and fictions used to “prove” the attainment of Christ.
I have found that regardless of the religion, where the miracles are, there is little truth. So, I have had to conclude that miracles were just the marketing hype or every religion of the day.
*The Son of God
This is one I am relatively certain of. When participating in a modern Christian mass, Jesus is referred to as the (singular) “Son of God.” There is a whole teaching in Christian dogma today about this, linking Jesus as “the” Son to a “God the Father” and a “Holy Ghost.”
This seems to be a misunderstanding of the Essene teaching of the “ben Elohim” (sons of God). Jesus seems to have referred to himself as one of the sons of God (plural), with the idea being that anyone could become a son of God if they followed his teaching. This line of reasoning also elucidates the teaching of the early church fathers, the idea “God became man that man might become god.” This teaching is sometimes called the idea of deification or divinization (theosis).
This is one I am relatively certain of. When participating in a modern Christian mass, Jesus is referred to as the (singular) “Son of God.” There is a whole teaching in Christian dogma today about this, linking Jesus as “the” Son to a “God the Father” and a “Holy Ghost.”
This seems to be a misunderstanding of the Essene teaching of the “ben Elohim” (sons of God). Jesus seems to have referred to himself as one of the sons of God (plural), with the idea being that anyone could become a son of God if they followed his teaching. This line of reasoning also elucidates the teaching of the early church fathers, the idea “God became man that man might become god.” This teaching is sometimes called the idea of deification or divinization (theosis).
I find this reasonable. Further, 250 years before Jesus Alexander the Great was believed to be the "Son of God, and was the God Jupiter, who was born of a virgin. Also, if we examine the archaeology of early Greco-Roman Christianity we find that most of the early temples that were dedicated to Jesus, were Jupiter temples that got a face lift, and a nae change, often without removing the mozaics that depicted Jupiter.
Also, making Jesus a god, and marketing a trinitarian belief system goes against the epistemology of monotheistic Judaism.
Further, if we stick to the epistemology of monotheistic Judaism ad examine Genesis, then we would have to acknowledge that Adam and Eve would constitute "God's first children."
Also, the Koran points out that the God of Abraham was a creator, therefore a woman would not have been needed to get Jesus. Jesus would have just been created.
Christian teaching often posits that Christ had two natures,
divine and human. Based on the above, it follows that all men can realize this
possibility, and become fully divine and fully human like Christ.
I agree with this.
*Jesus of Nazareth
This is one I am not as certain of, but have been suspicious of over the years. The idea Jesus originates in the town of Nazareth has been questioned by scholars and archaeologists. So, one alternative is “the Nazorean” or “of Nazareth” is a mistranslation of the correct “Nazirite.” The Nazirites were a sect of the Essenes, which would clarify more of Jesus’ origins.
This is one I am not as certain of, but have been suspicious of over the years. The idea Jesus originates in the town of Nazareth has been questioned by scholars and archaeologists. So, one alternative is “the Nazorean” or “of Nazareth” is a mistranslation of the correct “Nazirite.” The Nazirites were a sect of the Essenes, which would clarify more of Jesus’ origins.
Yes, I agree, see above.
*The Virgin Mary
Here I must admit I have never been a big fan of the cult of Mary, though over the past years I have in some ways been altering my perspective. Christian teaching says that Jesus’ mother “was born without original sin” and that she conceived Jesus without having had sexual relations: that Christ’s birth was of a virgin.
I feel that this is very clear mythologization, and we can find analogues of virgin birth in the religions and mythologies that were contemporary to the Gospels.
One problem with Mary is beyond her motherhood and holiness, we don’t know much about her. This has been an obstacle of mine in appreciating her as a spiritual figure. Perhaps it is that Mary was a holy woman, who also gave birth to a son who went on to become a holy man. Yet there is also evidence against this in the Gospels; for instance, the scene when Christ is teaching in the synagogue and Mary calls out, “He is out of his mind!” This brief scene in the past suggested to me that his mother was a worldly woman, unaware of the true nature of her son.
Here I must admit I have never been a big fan of the cult of Mary, though over the past years I have in some ways been altering my perspective. Christian teaching says that Jesus’ mother “was born without original sin” and that she conceived Jesus without having had sexual relations: that Christ’s birth was of a virgin.
I feel that this is very clear mythologization, and we can find analogues of virgin birth in the religions and mythologies that were contemporary to the Gospels.
One problem with Mary is beyond her motherhood and holiness, we don’t know much about her. This has been an obstacle of mine in appreciating her as a spiritual figure. Perhaps it is that Mary was a holy woman, who also gave birth to a son who went on to become a holy man. Yet there is also evidence against this in the Gospels; for instance, the scene when Christ is teaching in the synagogue and Mary calls out, “He is out of his mind!” This brief scene in the past suggested to me that his mother was a worldly woman, unaware of the true nature of her son.
Yes, I agree. But, I should also point out that the term 'virgin' in translation more often means a young, unmarried, person. Not someone who had never had sex, but it is implied.
*Physical Resurrection
The Resurrection of Christ is one of the most important parts of the Christian Gospels. The earliest Gospel (Mark) has an ending in which the disciples go to the tomb and find it empty; then the Gospel ends ambiguously. The two next Gospels have Jesus’ appearances to the disciples (which might be construed as intuitions or spiritual communications). However, by the time of the last Gospel (John), this return is now a full bodily resurrection, with Thomas famously touching Christ’s wounds.
This narrative has led to the modern teaching that Christ’s promise is of physical resurrection as opposed to spiritual resurrection. Unfortunately, I find this flawed and do not see any reason for a return to the physical body.
The Resurrection of Christ is one of the most important parts of the Christian Gospels. The earliest Gospel (Mark) has an ending in which the disciples go to the tomb and find it empty; then the Gospel ends ambiguously. The two next Gospels have Jesus’ appearances to the disciples (which might be construed as intuitions or spiritual communications). However, by the time of the last Gospel (John), this return is now a full bodily resurrection, with Thomas famously touching Christ’s wounds.
This narrative has led to the modern teaching that Christ’s promise is of physical resurrection as opposed to spiritual resurrection. Unfortunately, I find this flawed and do not see any reason for a return to the physical body.
There are definite problems with the so-called resurrection:
1) I have been an herbalist for 55 years. Aloes are commonly used in herbalism; however, aloes are not put on a dead body for imbalming. They are put on an injured, but alive body for healing.
2) The whole point of the first Nacian counsel was to establish the divinity of Jesus. The Persian Christian Church had existed for 4 centuries before the Greco-Roman church. It was their premise that Jesus survived his crucifixion, and traveled with Thomas to Persia, where they started Jesus' mission together.
*Redemption Theology
This doctrine is a major pillar of all modern branches of Western Christianity, and one I have a problem with. While this dogma does reconcile Christ’s martyrdom, suffering, and death with the larger narrative of the Bible, I do not feel it is an appropriate interpretation.
This teaching usually goes something along the lines of this. “Man has original sin due to Adam; so, God sends Christ to suffer and die, and by doing so he ‘redeems’ the sin of mankind.”
I find this a very simpleminded understanding of Christ’s death, and an unnecessary one. Here I do feel the Eastern churches have been better at maintaining their integrity, as they have left many of these events open-ended for the individual to discern as “mysteries,” as opposed to giving easy canned narratives to preach to the public from the pulpit.
This doctrine is a major pillar of all modern branches of Western Christianity, and one I have a problem with. While this dogma does reconcile Christ’s martyrdom, suffering, and death with the larger narrative of the Bible, I do not feel it is an appropriate interpretation.
This teaching usually goes something along the lines of this. “Man has original sin due to Adam; so, God sends Christ to suffer and die, and by doing so he ‘redeems’ the sin of mankind.”
I find this a very simpleminded understanding of Christ’s death, and an unnecessary one. Here I do feel the Eastern churches have been better at maintaining their integrity, as they have left many of these events open-ended for the individual to discern as “mysteries,” as opposed to giving easy canned narratives to preach to the public from the pulpit.
I agree that Christian doctrine is naive, but all mainstream religions tend to be naive.
Teachings of Christ
Here are the four major tenets I get from careful study of the Gospels. I. Metanoia
The call for the complete transformation or conversion of man to conformity with truth or God.
II. The Beatitudes
The teaching of the themes of universal love and acceptance.
III. The redemptive power of suffering
The teaching that suffering ennobles or elevates man. IV. Christ’s conquest of death
The meaning of the Resurrection: that eternal life is possible for man.
Here are the four major tenets I get from careful study of the Gospels. I. Metanoia
The call for the complete transformation or conversion of man to conformity with truth or God.
II. The Beatitudes
The teaching of the themes of universal love and acceptance.
III. The redemptive power of suffering
The teaching that suffering ennobles or elevates man. IV. Christ’s conquest of death
The meaning of the Resurrection: that eternal life is possible for man.
Yes, I agree; however, I do not agree with the so-called redemptive power of suffer, but the redemptive power of leading a contemplative life. Much of this discussion I hope will become central to the Great Western Vehicle.
